Captain Beefheart...

by **jonny_boy34** on Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:59 am

Metalbrew Stu wrote:Hilarity is in the mans nature. He wants his music to be hilarious. He is hilarious.

Well if that's the case, then I love Captain Beefheart. Because he is hilarious. I don't really feel much of an emotional response from his music apart from hilarity. Except for Safe As Milk which is great as well, a bit easier to enjoy. But the goodness on that album makes me want to like his other stuff... but it's really quite hard to get into. It's just hilarious.

by **EvileOL** on Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:49 pm

I could only enjoy this if i was extremely stoned or wasted

by **STD_Caps** on Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:41 pm

Resilience Records wrote:
STD_Caps wrote:A lot of what I just said Stu was to be controversial but it does partially reflect my views. I definitely consider it overhyped. Meanwhile check out these modern beefhearts (I joke):

http://www.myspace.com/venetiansnares (PINK+GREEN and PWNTENDO in particular)

http://www.myspace.com/speedranch

http://www.myspace.com/cardopusher (hilarious!)

Man, I don't get this stuff

Caps dude, seriously! what the hell are you even talking about. firstly you can't seriously be trying to argue that those 3 D'n'B / Hardcore acts are the modernisation of Captain Beefface. surely you are not a fool. also (and possibly very unsuprisingly to Stu) i think all 3 of those acts were awsome, and i may get a venetian snares record now. i had heard of them but never checked them out, cheers, they are fucking great!

now, if you are trying to tell me that the stuff those 3 acts produce is "just noise" then you are a hypocrite of the highest degree, i have one word for you... Discharge. to me the "its just noise" factor applies a hell of alot more to some of the stuff they have done than to anything compared to those boys or beefheart. correct me if i'm wrong but i'm sure if it wasn't for bands like Discharge we wouldn't even have a sub genre known as "Noise-core", i'm not saying thats a bad thing, i love discharge, but really maybe you have to realise that you dont "get" what these people are doing. the same way that alot of people don't like extreme metal or grime or hip hop etc. if you don't understand what is going on then you will find it hard to appreciate. sometimes its hard to get into different types of music or find something to connect with. thats fine, but there is no use trying to slag off something you don't understand yourself! thats just ignorant. you ignorant cunt.

Trout Mask contains some of the most increadible melodic and rhtymic treats known to man, his lyrics are increadible and to me his music is both vivid and visceral in equal mesaure. thats something quite rare especially when its done in such a way as on
that album.

now if you want some real noise check these guys out... and again definately unsuprisingly to anybody that knows me, i think all these guys are great!

http://www.myspace.com/cthonicrites - MOSS - i've got their album, i play it very loudly!

http://www.myspace.com/monarchuberalles - Monarch - got their latest split 7" they did with Moss, its great!

http://www.myspace.com/wmangler - Wolfmangler - got their last album "'Dwelling in a Dead Raven for the Glory of Crucified Wolves", its the bleakest of beautiful things.

for this last treat White Mice, i think this Youtube clip best sums them up -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNfuesQnsBE
I wish i had been at that show! They were supporting fucking Lighting Bolt and the support band before these guys did this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8OjH5Qjc50

BOLLOCKS! BOLLOCKSBOLLOCKSBOLLOCKSBOLLOCKS!

Note 1:

check out these modern beefhearts (I joke):

Note 2:
The Discharge reference is pointless. There is a difference between badly produced (the Discharge EPs and ND's earlier releases) and just simple, 'I'll make a fucking racket music'. Some Discharge songs are pretty fucking mental ie Why (reprise) but that's because it is essentially the breakdown fuck up of the original.

Note 3:

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm sure if it wasn't for bands like Discharge we wouldn't even have a sub genre known as "Noise-core"

You're wrong. Noisecore pretty much started with people like John Zorn. Granted the man himself may have had an interest in bands like Discharge but it was an attempt to meld this with noise. Similarly, Mr Bungle and its influences (like Zorn) were key to the music known as noisecore. The lineage doesn't fit for the reasons mentioned above.

Note 4:

you have to realise that you dont "get" what these people are doing. the same way that alot of people don't like extreme metal or grime or hip hop etc. if you don't understand what is going on then you will find it hard to appreciate.

Jamiejamie, wrong again! I'm not saying I don't 'get' it. I'm saying it's overrated and, by and large, a lot of silly noodling about. I don't get hardcore dnb, I don't get house n garage and I really, really don't get people doing dance mixes of Pink Floyd (I mean, seriously, what the fuck?). However, despite finding all this stuff, personally, a real crock of shit, it doesn't mean I can't see why other people would like it. It is, for all intents and purposes, music. Very shit music. Trout Mask (not Beefheart) is mostly silliness. It's not that I don't get it, it's that I am not going to walk around and pretend that it's the mot intelligent, insightul music known to man. It's pissing about and therefore people assume it must be more. That's bullshit. At least the other examples I listed have no pretence to being anything other than music for drugfiends.

Note 5:
A lot of the bands you named actually produce music. Very noisy music but music none the less. The youtube stuff was hilariously shit. I mean fucking godawful. That White Mice bollocks, just look at the crowd. They all look like arty-student-wanker-pretentious-cunts and they all don't get it. They don't get it! Because there is nothing to get. And that is their audience. What shit.

Note 6:
I agree about Venetian Snares. They have a sort of classical styled track and that is actually a nicely constructed piece of music. Also, there seems to be some actual genuine rhythm to their music. Amazing.

I expect my apology shortly.

by **Metalbrew Stu** on Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:00 pm

This is great.

The stuff on Trout Mask is certainly music, and it certainly has rhythm. What silliness do you refer to? The fact that at first it seems like noise and random playing at first doesn't justify you calling it silly. Trout mask is not intelligent. It was never meant to be. It's a view into one man's mind. Perhaps the term genius is thrown around too much. Can Beefheart really be a genius? I don't know. He wouldn't see it that way. This was just him creating music. Trust me, I've read a lot about the man and the band. He had a vision of what he wanted the songs to sound like, and wouldn't leave the band alone until they sounded that way. So much so, that most ended up not being able to work with him any more.

Fine, you don't like the album. But I'll honestly say that if you think it's just random silly noise, you really haven't listened to it. I'll guarantee that most people who've heard this album wont have listened to the end on their first listen, and probably wont listen to it again. Fair enough. So what? I don't care. I love this album, I don't care what it means to other people. I just think it's wrong to immediately dismiss it. But then again, I do the same with so many other albums, so I'm a bloody hypocrite.

by **Immortalicide** on Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:06 pm

STD_Caps wrote:
Note 3:
correct me if i'm wrong but i'm sure if it wasn't for bands like Discharge we wouldn't even have a sub genre known as "Noise-core"

Mr Bungle and its influences (like Zorn) were key to the music known as noisecore. The lineage doesn't fit for the reasons mentioned above.

Mr Bungle didnt influence noisecore at all to my perception of things. Way before then, there was bands like siege and anti-cimex. Now they influenced noise-core!!!

by **jonny_boy34** on Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:57 am

Metalbrew Stu wrote:I just think it's wrong to immediately dismiss it. But then again, I do the same with so many other albums, so I'm a bloody hypocrite.

Yeah. Go and listen to The Black Halo and Thirteenth Step, you bastard!

by **Resilience Records** on Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:20 am

Metalbrew Stu wrote:Fine, you don't like the album. But I'll honestly say that if you think it's just random silly noise, you really haven't listened to it.

thats exactly the point, well done and thank you stu.

and i can't even believe anything else, i'm going to pretend that this is all just a big joke!

by **STD_Caps** on Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:43 pm

Alright, fine, it's not just silliness. So the songs are actual songs (haha). Why do you like these songs then. Don't give me, 'insight into his mind' bollocks. Seriously, why do you like this album so much. What are particular songs do you like. I've heard Zappa, all good (from what I've heard). I've heard Beefheart and besides Trout Mask it's all pretty good. So what is it about a man singing gibberish (however, poetic) and him giving it a load of silly (I will keep usng that word) musical accompaniment.

Immortalicide wrote:
STD_Caps wrote:
Note 3:
correct me if i'm wrong but i'm sure if it wasn't for bands like Discharge we wouldn't even have a sub genre known as "Noise-core"

Mr Bungle and its influences (like Zorn) were key to the music known as noisecore. The lineage doesn't fit for the reasons mentioned above.

Mr Bungle didnt influence noisecore at all to my perception of things. Way before then, there was bands like siege and anti-cimex. Now they influenced noise-core!!!

Depends on your definition of 'noisecore'. I assumed Jamie was referring to DEP and the like. Regardless, bands that influenced noisecore were influenced somewhat by Discharge. The Discharge connection is secondary and doesn't really apply under direct influences, I'd argue.

by **Metalbrew Stu** on Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:28 pm

I'll tell you why I like it so much. It's the brilliance of how all the parts work together to produce this sound that is unlike any other you'll hear. All the instruments playing differently, with the drums holding the rhythm together. Listen to the different parts. The guitar, the bass all playing these wonderful melodies that seem to completely oppose each other, but in fact come together to create songs.
Then beefheart singing over the top, his voice is fantastic. I find I take the time to actually listen to his lyrics, which I wont normally do. Fine, I'll listen to bands and pick up the lyrics, but with beefheart I make a conscious effort to listen to the lyrics. Whilst many of them wont make literal sense, it's the way they're delivered and the imagery they convey.

If you have time Caps, have a read of this interview with the guitarist around the trout mask time. It may give you a bit of insight.

I just find the man fascinating, and do look at this album as an insight into his mind. The talky bits in between tracks, the spoken word tracks, they all give an insight into his humour, strangeness, ideas and views.

I'm going to watch Harry Enfield now. I hope it's good.

by **Metalbrew Stu** on Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:29 pm

Oh yeah.... the interview
http://www.diskant.net/interviews/zoothornrollo.htm

by **STD_Caps** on Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:52 am

Read the interview. And...

I've had this CD going on 10 years now and to begin with I hated it. Despite opening my mind wider than a python's jaw, the near-total absense of structure or melody prevented me getting past the first few tracks. Then after a few years I forgot my initial impressions and decided to give it another go. Still the same avantgard plop. This record makes me want to smash up my CD player. Just because he ran his band like a mad dictator and made them stay up for weeks on end rehearsing doesn't alter the fact that this is unlistenable garbage. Sorry, note-perfect, unlistenable garbage.
His lyrics are certainly interesting and poetic, but don't make the mistake of confusing 'uncoventional' with 'cool' or 'good' as far as the music goes.

Someone on Amazon. Granted not a good place for argument backups but this pretty muh summed it up. Of course, I probably wouldn't be bothered by this much at all if it wasn't for the fact that this CD is forever getting into critic polls and the like. This album is for completists who have to find a deeper meaning (like St Anger

)

by **jonny_boy34** on Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:24 am

I'd quite like to join in this debate as Caps has said some things that, to me, as a casual Beefheart listener who has tried a couple of times (but no more as of yet) to listen to Trout Mask, make a bit of sense. Some songs just have too much madness in them. And just because they're random noises and therefore different because no one else does it, it doesn't automatically make them good. Otherwise in five minutes I could do some screaming and record myself hitting some tables and going 'oh my goodness' and say I'm breaking boundaries because no one's done it before and make an album that Jamie would think is the best in the world. But I don't see how really that is good.

For example, Moonchild (King Crimson, not Iron Maiden) is very nice, but it just goes on for a bit too long. I'm not going to say I think it's great because it's lots of random noises and therefore it must be great. I'm of the opinion that it's nice and atmospheric for a while, but then after a few minutes becomes unnecessary and stops serving a real purpose. It is literally just a collection of noises that mean absolutely nothing and that don't make me feel anything. It's just there purely as self-indulgence.

I sometimes think people like to read too much into things and pretend they think things are good because they sound like there is some sort of hidden intelligent meaning when really its just rubbish. (I'm not talking about anyone or anything in particular here, so please don't get offended anyone) It would be like me saying xXx is really a subtext for the war in Iraq, because believing that the film is just what it is and that a film could possibly be so bad is not something I could face. But sometimes, you just have to accept things at face value, sometimes things are just what they are.

Of course, I'm not applying any of what I've just said to Beefheart in particular as I haven't given the album a proper chance yet, but that's just a general view I have on life, and if all Mr Caps can hear on Trout Mask is random noises (which, to be fair, is a lot of what I can hear on it too), then I can see where he's coming from with what he's saying.

But I'll reserve my final judgement until I listen to it again properly.

by **Metalbrew Stu** on Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:24 pm

I also agree with what Caps is saying on the whole. You know that Jon. I detest noise for the sake of noise. It's just annoying. But I don't believe Beefheart is like that. And people who do can't have listened to much, or listened carefully. There's lots going on in the tracks, but that doesn't make them random noise.

Opinions are like Chris Caps, everyone hates them. Shall we just stop this thread now?

by **Metalbrew Stu** on Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:29 pm

And the album isn't for completists. It's essential for Beefheart fans. If you're not a fan, don't buy it. If you are, you need it. Nothing to complete.

by **jonny_boy34** on Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:15 pm

Metalbrew Stu wrote:I also agree with what Caps is saying on the whole. You know that Jon. I detest noise for the sake of noise. It's just annoying. But I don't believe Beefheart is like that. And people who do can't have listened to much, or listened carefully.

Indeed, don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that Trout Mask is noise and therefore rubbish. I'm just saying upon first listen that's what some of it appears to sound like, but like you say, I haven't listened to it much to I can't really say for sure, and indeed I don't feel like I can say for sure at all yet. But because I haven't listened to it much yet, I can see where Caps is coming from with what he is saying. I was just really tired so I went off on one.

Basically, I'm sure I'll end up agreeing with you when I listen to it properly. If only just because I hate Caps and his German moustache.