So this is recently seems to becomming bigger atm. Pay to play promoters, is there anything we can do to stop it? Check this forum
http://organart.freeforums.org/say-no-2 ... ht-f6.html
for a big ass list of bad stories and shit promoters that rip you off!!

I think its bloody rediculas. Honestly with things like this going down...how can a band be expected to start up?

If you are unaware- Pay to Play usually involves the band having to sell x amount of tickets before they see any money (usually they will have to put a deposit down aswell, this meens they are potentially going to loose money)
So how can a band whos new/starting out be expected to say...bring 20 pepole down? 20 people is quite a big amount of people to get down to a show:

A big example is that of the purple turtle who have apparently started doing this: (this is an email from the PT sent to a band who requested info about playing):

If you are interested in playing one of our in-house nights we do ask that bands are able to get 20+ people down to shows, and will be required to sell 20 tickets in advance. 20 tickets = £100, out of which you will keep £50

However, we will need a deposit of £50 before we can send you the tickets. (This is to prevent sending tickets to bands that don't actually intend to play) selling all 20 tickets at £5 per ticket will therefore earn you your deposit back plus £50 on top for you to keep.

I just think its disgusting, why do people even bother doing this? Is it because bands are lazy, have stoped doing promotion and getting off of myspace and actuallly DOING promo for gigs insted of spamming people? Do bands in the "scene" need to get together more often for more joint gigs? WTF can we do...we need to stop P2P

To put the Purple Turtle ticket sales in to perspective. If four bands do sell 20 tickets each then the place will basically be full. Maybe half of the gigs I've been to at the PT in the last year have been over 50% full.

What sucks is I thought that by drinking copious amounts of alcohol I was subsidising the bands

Ok as a Promoter, Sound Engineer (specifically in London - and even more specifically Camden) and as a gigging musician of... nearly 10 years i think i have a fairly balanced and un-biased view of the situation.

I don't think that Pay to Play is a good thing in its rawest form - i.e. band has to pay x amount to play at a venue/show. BUT i have also seen from the inside how hard it is to keep a live music venue open and making money so more shows can be put on, even in the heart of busy old camden. There is a fine line and its a tricky one that needs to be walked, but also its a bit of give and take.

As far as some promoters or venues who tell a band they have to pay x amount to play, thats ridiculous and unfounded in its methods, IF there is no obvious return for the band. i've heard all sorts of horror stories of bands having to pay loads of money to play certain shows, even being told on the day that if they dont pay however many thousands of pounds then they'll have to pull out! thats what i would call pay to play, and that is near criminal. so where that is concerned i am dead against it. i think that deals like ticket offers are a totally different thing altogether and in most cases are justified - for example the Purple Turtle. its not hard to get 10 people to a show for £5 each, and like OragamiKid says if a band actually want to get off their arses and promote themselves properly they could potentially get alot more people involved. so if a band pull 10 people then they don't get paid but they are not losing any money either, they get their £50 back, if they sell anymore than 10 tickets they can make themselves a decent fee for the show. i think most bands on here would agree that £50 for a show is pretty good, especially an unsigned in-house night during the week!

I personally think that in house nights generally aren't very well promoted and aren't always a great bet in terms of audience and getting paid etc, but i think you shouldn't ever expect them to be, and its up to the bands more than the venue to make these type of nights successful. its really hard promoting 1 show every few months, let alone 3 or 4 a week!

This is where i always found my personal conflict with in-house nights, and so i decided to start putting on shows myself and getting friends and bands i liked involved, this then moved onto doing the thrash shows which has been a much more enjoyable experience altogether. i think that most bands who have played on a show i have put on will agree that everyone is treated fairly and that i have never made anyone pay to play. I've never made any money from putting on shows, but i've managed to just about break even overall, BUT i have managed to pay alot of the bands who have played my shows and/or have informed bands previous to the day that they may not be able to get any money for the show. I don't mind playing for free, and so i would expect other bands to feel the same, but i wouldn't expect to pay money to play somewhere so in return i wouldn't treat my bands this way either.

The point i was trying to make though, is that if you are going to put a load of time and effort into promoting an in-house night, why not just do it yourself and reap the rewards! This is my main gripe about people complaining about pay to play, if you don't like it - do it yourself and do it properly! if you want to play an awesome line up with bands you really like... there is a very easy way of doing this, put the bloody show on yourself! especially if you are being asked for x amount of money to play - pay that money, but pay it as the hire fee and therefore enable yourself the opportunity to get all the profits from the door, design the flyers and choose who else is bloody playing with you! Pay to play is such a scandal - but its just as bad relying on everyone else to do the work for you.

Researching promoters is important too, if yoy dont want to pay loads of money to play at a venue - speak to a promoter who puts on nights there. you'll probably find you can strike a much fairer deal with a promoter, often promoters will have slots allocated in their gigs for bands who may not pull massive audiences (being from out of town, or being particularly new or unheard of) because its good to get new talent invloved etc. there are a lot of crooks out there too, and promoters can be notoriously shit, but there are also some amazing promotion companies and promoters who actually do their job. i would say these sorts of nights are much more beneficial too.

Finally at the other end of the spectrum bigger bands will have to pay to play in terms of touring and bigger shows. If you want to play with Exodus for a month around Europe, you will sure as hell be paying a fair whack to have the privilege (known as a Buy-on fee). This is why record labels are useful! haha! But even on this larger scale there is still that degree of give and take, as in bands paying to play on a tour but the money going to actual advertising and promotion etc.

I've never made any money from gigging without putting a fair amount of effort into promoting, as far as bands having to pay for tickets and stuff thats not the end of the world, it gives you an incentive to actually pull your finger out! Like the venue say themselves, if you dont like it you dont have to play there and even there are other promoters to get in contact with who may just put you on a line up anyway!

I've tried to keep this rant as general and across the board as is possible, so i'll just quickly say that as far as the purple turtle is concerned, i've never had a more enjoyable gigging or promoting experience as when i've done stuff at the turtle. its by far the best venue in camden, and absolutely up there with venues of its size in the UK. the sound is great, the PA is great, there are back stage rooms, a decent light rig, plenty of space (its not a sweat box!), a well stocked and not outrageously priced bar, nice staff... i could go on and on. I think it fair enough for them to have to take some sort of deposit/safety with offering ticket sales, and ultimately it should benefit everybody going there. i wouldn't call its Pay To Play to offer a ticket deal, i would imagine it works out better than a straight flyer deal or door split for most bands.

Absolutely finally - Metaldazza and everybody who agrees with your point of view (which is a fair one to have by the way) - if you really want to support the band, buy merchandise and CDs from them at shows!!! the money goes straight to the bands and is so appreciated when it comes to paying for petrol etc etc etc. there is no better way of showing your support. its very very frustrating when people would rather spend their last £5 on beer, than buy a t-shirt (that would last a lot longer than a pint!) of the band that they have just watched and enjoyed. i dont want this to sound like i am aiming this at anybody in particular, and i can understand that people may not have enough money to always keep buying CDs and T-shirts (because i know i dont!), but if its a decision between alcohol or music, i know which one i would choose!

Nice post Jamie.

I'd like to add that part of the problem is the 'too many chiefs, not enough indians' scenario. So many people are in bands, there are too many bands, most people don't promote properly (promoters and bands), etc. There's too many venues, and just too much live music!

It isnt at all a new thing, i know for a fac when dumpy's rusty nuts supported status quo back in the late 80s, dumpy remortgaged his house to raise the fee required to buy onto that tour, and he told me that it was usual practice to have to pay such large amounts!!

It's just one of those things you have to deal with or not do. From people I've known, the promoters know it's not the best way to organize things, but some situations demand it, especially shows where the band will pull about 10 people.

Jamie has made a few real good points, and it could actually be something we could all help with to an extent. Promotion, now the podcast and the zine do a little bit of advertising but i am pretty sure we could all help out a bit more.

I for one am always up for giving a helping hand (however i can) for the music and the scene that i love.

So yeah, support the bands. Make love not war and buy merch.

I do see what your saying Jamie and the Purple Turtle was just an example for people on here as the PT is a big london venue, which i do really like i must add. But then again charging a band a £50 deposit and then expecting them to sell a further £100 worth of tickets ... that isnt something alot of unsigned bands are going to be able to do, and if they are a new band who dont care about turning a profit- who just want to play and build a big fanbase etc... then eventually where are they going to be playing?

I think the worst culprits are the people that do that surface unsigned competiton and apparently the Bloodstock unsiged comps take this piss alittle (although the guy in Bournemouth has changed the rules and stuff so it doesnt rip people off). But yea buying merch and everything is great, which i do at every chance i get, but when will i have the oppotunity to buy merch if a band cant Afford to play a venue.

I would love to set up my own nights, and as such i am looking into setting up some local stuff before moving up to london area with some thrash nights...the problem is i have no idea how to go about it and i dont wanna go strait for london but the Metal scene down here in Southampton/bournemouth is so fucking shit-it really is.

I am all up for paying a deposit that is returnable, just to make sure me and my band actually turn up to play a show. But often with P2P (not necissaraly the turtle) the band will have to pay the deposit and then buy those 20 tickets in advance as well , so that is atleast £150 gone out of there own pockets....atleast that much...its outrageous. But Jamie you did bring up alot of good points, but i dont see why a band should be expected to pay to play a venue. There has to be a better way to actually make bands get off there asses and promote there own fucking gigs.

It's a tough situation this one, Jamie's pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Pay To Play is obviously very gay and rubbish, and the ticket thing can be a bit dodgy, but the decline of Bar Monsta has opened my eyes to how hard it is to just try and be fair to the bands. Mick was always so against Pay to Play, he had all sorts of blogs about it on his MySpace. I have my various problems with the guy, but to be fair he has/had some good ethics when it came to promoting. However, by relying solely on the bands to promote their gigs without asking them to do anything in return, he would have plenty of nights where the venue would be empty. Obviously the infamous drinks prices at Bar Monsta and the way the other guy Jimmy ran that place were part of the reason for many people not wanting to go there, but at the end of the day, if a band puts effort into promoting their gig, their friends and fans should come. This wasn't happening - promoters too were being incredibly shit - and Mick started putting on less and less gigs there because he wasn't making any money, and the ones he was putting on that were rubbish were getting him into more and more debt. I stopped working there also, because of various things resulting from this. He ended up having to tell promoters they had to give a £500 bar guarantee, and, as far as I've guessed, he pretty much stopped putting his own nights on there too. That place got more and more fucked up, and now it's rubbish. This isn't of course just down to letting bands play for free and therefore the bands putting no work into the promotion, it was also down to the other guy being a cunt and an idiot, but still, it was part of it. For all Mick's faults, it wasn't really his fault that the place got so shit, he was just in an incredibly difficult situation. It's just that generally, it seems that there are so many shit bands around that play at every venue and don't put any effort into bringing people down. How do you combat this? By telling them they have to bring x amount of people to get paid, or getting the band to buy the tickets themselves to sell afterwards. For some venues, it may seem like the only way, and ethically it's questionable, but it can be so difficult sometimes when people are just generally rubbish.

You see, I'm a very unworldly man and just assumed that the venues put on nights to sell alcohol. I assumed they made money from selling beer and the bands/promoter split whatever came in on the door. Thanks Jamie for clearing all that up. I take your point about t-shirts and demo's. I do buy a lot of CD's, EP's and tshirts from bands but there is only so many tshirts I can fit in my draws

On the subject of bands promoting themselves: I deal with this is a very small way on New Metal Army and I have to say the UK Thrash scene is basically, honestly shit at this. I understand that NMA is a small site and not everyone uses it but from the UK Death metal scene I get emails, flyers and bands/promoters adding gigs (which anyone can do for free)... I get next to nothing from the UK Thrash scene. Of course I'm pretty sure that my promotion of NMA has been crap but that's a different point. Hundreds of people in the UK do look at the gigs listed there every week and for the cost of two minutes you might get a punter or two more at a gig.

This is all just anecdotal and I'm not bitter but I do wonder if the UK Thrash scene is really a scene or a forum for japes. Then again in life there are people who are driven and people who get dragged along by events so maybe it's just normal.

thing i found awkward was whenever they do a tally at the turtle and im there to see 2+ bands of which are some of my faves i have to choose ONLY 1 band when they ask me who ive came to support/see.
i can see their point but for each band to have to get 20 people when some regular supporters/fans of the genre are there every time,it makes it seem unfair on the tally for whichever bands they didnt pick at the door.for example if winter wonder/apocalyptic rage had been a tally then i would seriously have been torn between who to vote for.
i think maybe they should do joint gigs(no not that kinda joint Donny/Faraz)and then if 3 bands can get 50people in advance between them then that should surely be enough as other people will still show up on the night anyway.
i like the turtle but i hope it doesnt end up empty like bar monsta.if so then maybe the gigs will move to the unicorn in future perhaps?
it already seems to be putting on a lot of cool gigs.
whats the system/policy in there?im guessing bands go on free and then the unicorn is happy that the place is filled with enough younger people actually spending money on their reasonably priced beers?

To many cooks, one pot.

It seems its the 'in' thing to be a promoter these days. One of the reason I stopped putting on gigs for the time being is because I have nothing to offer that will get interest of people to come to a gig. Other then Birmingham is in a desperate need of a Independant venue.

If I could buy a warehouse Id turn it into 924 Gilman or HAUS in San Francisco I would.

I've been lucky enough and Gama Bomb before they were International bands, bring over bands from Europe and America and been a integrel part of UKTHRASH


A main reason why our Reanimator gigs have been so successful is our DIY ethic, we pay what we can throught some shrewd negoatation of one of us,Jamie can testify im sure

Whilst ANYONE can put on a gig, its an art to break even and lets face it when you book a gig at a venue that is'nt a little back room pub, the owners are going to want to cut there overheads i.e barstaff/security then take all the profit on the bar otherwise you'll find that night is usually a empty venue.

also i think £50 for a band isnt too much considering most bands have 4-5members so its £10-15 each.hknow thats a little chunk but if i was in a band i think its very good value to get to perform onstage,use the venues speakers/drums/equipment and hang/meet with other bands.also its not like you have to set £5-£10 aside on the night for any entry fees so...

the 20 tickets thing should be easy enough.

if youre in a band and out in london regularly with a wad of tickets at gigs/pubs/meet ups etc prior to the gig your playing then it should be no problem selling some to mates/regulars in advance.
i bought a ticket off Donny at the turtle for his upcoming underworld gig a few mins after i very first spoke to him about how i enjoyed his Nebz set this was 2decembers ago and we hardly knew eachother.
also ever since then,he has always offered tickets for future shows in advance.i remember me and Spencer bought some for another underworld gig from Donny.its cool to support the local bands rather than order through ticket sites/buy at the door.
i know a lot of turtle gigs arent on ticketweb/seetickets etc but that doesnt mean to say they cant be sold beforehand.
even on here,bands could easily set up a thread with paypal/email info about obtaining their tickets for sale.also its good to buy tickets in advance then you got no excuse to say youre skint when the day comes a few months later.

a prime example of getting the numbers up are Sigil.they have a solid 10-20 people who try their utmost to attend all sigil gigs no matter what day,what time or which venue.the majority of them always show up without fail.
(you will hear about it on the dvd interview)
this shows that with enough word of mouth and ringin around/chasing and following things up that it is not too hard to get people to come to a london gig.
if a band made a gig thread on here explaining they need a certain turnout,us forumers who arent in that band wont see it as the band asking for favours to further thier interests but we will more likely understand and sign up to support the band and the gig they are tryna promote by buying their tickets asap.

another example was a slaughterday ticket i bought.it came through the post recorded delivery after i got it through paypal.
then funnily enough,on the actual day of the gig,i found out it was Donny who mailed it to me as him and Jake run the slaghterhouse promotions.

to a lesser extent,when i did my little sf2 tournament last year,that was hard enough to get even 15people lol.

by the time it happened i wasnt far off,if the twat owner had let it run til 5 rather than send us on our was at 3.30 then there would have been the right amount because 3more showed up and another 2 had showed up(both parties just after we had left)so 14 would have been the grand total.just one off target.

also i remember askin around at various gigs before this little event and seeing if random people might be interested and also telling them about ukthrash.one of these people was Zurab

i know its not a gig but for something a lot more smalltime it was a decent enough turnout overall.and this forum was a big help.

You see I didn't know I could buy tickets from bands. Why didn't I know that? COZ NO ONE TOLD ME! Although it does make sense. So can I buy tickets for Nebukadnezza on sunday?

Anyway, in a fit of typing I've typed up a thread on tips for promoting your band/gig online to try and get something positive out of this. Please add to it

http://ukthrash.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4737

metaldazza wrote:You see I didn't know I could buy tickets from bands. Why didn't I know that? COZ NO ONE TOLD ME! Although it does make sense. So can I buy tickets for Nebukadnezza on sunday?

usually if you see someone from a band out and about round london,on the offchance they may have some advance tickets for an upcoming gig.failing that,either check myspace or just PM some of them on here to see if they can help you obtain one.
now and again i got the odd advance ticket by asking at the venue(after reading the listings/posters on the door)to see if they have any already on sale.