I think we use religion as a way of dealing with questions we as a species cannot possibly comprehend the answers to, in the same way a cat could not possibly ever learn Pythagoras' theorem, we cannot learn the true meaning of existence.

You've obviously never met my cat. He can meow Pi to 25,000.

swizzlenuts wrote:@Jonny Boy
Religion teaches you to love one another and be peaceful?

Stone unruly childen: Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed."
"'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to The Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever, for in six days The Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested.'" (Exodus 31:12-17)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Luke 19:27, Jesus said, “Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.”

That's not a good loving thing to be taught in the bible, and all the love stuff was invented before the bible. People would be loving and caring even without any type of religion, because was selected for in Evolution.

Fair enough then, I was quite wrong. Although when we were studying Exodus back in the day when I was a small boy in bullshit religion school, I was just told nice things and I never heard about any of that death stuff. Al I was told was that we weren't supposed to do anything on the Sabbath and if we did, then we shouldn't have done. But then again, I never went out of my way to read the real thing, so there are still plenty of things I don't know about. But my main point was that people are cunts, religion or no religion. Obviously religion is a massive part of all the shit that happened in the history of the world, and a lot of things wouldn't have happened if everyone was just allowed to have the freedom to believe what they want to believe. But intolerance, misunderstanding, ignorance and stupidity are human problems not brought about by religion, it's just part of who some people are.

In the words of president Jack Nicholson, "Why can't we all just... get along?"

It's like people hide behind all of the bible for no reason at all. They claim they get everything good from the bible, yet have to good reason to believe in it.

It is a fact that religion does do good things, but there are parts of the religion that leads to intolerance and shit like that. I think that Richard quote fits perfectly about what you are trying to convey. It's just a misconception that Religion has put into our society that it's good, when in reality it's not.

Also, I'm curious about the Agnostics here.

Agnosticism is usually saying, we can't prove or disprove god(s), so it's pretty much pointless to even talk about it.

At the moment we cannot test the deistic god, and the point to not discuss that type of god makes sense. Why do you guys hold that true for a presented god like the god of the bible or any major religion? We can scientifically test all of those gods if they do in fact interact with humans, but every time we've tested them, it's been shown there is nothing there. I don't see the point of being an Agnostic.

The question is whether there is a god or not, so by definition you are an atheist or a theist. At the same time there is a spectrum of agnostic atheist, gnostic atheists, agnostic theists, and gnostic theists, and this is what you can possibly be on the spectrum. When someone claims they are an agnostic, it appears that they don't care about this all powerful being. How can you not care if this jealous, terrible god actually does exist and send you to hell? It's one of the most important questions to man.

I'm agnostic and I don't believe in any of the Christian stuff. I just don't know if there is anything other than nothing. That's what I mean when I say agnostic, there's probably another phrase..

I think one of the most interesting debates is where we get our morality from. Christians often fire the old "we get our morals from the Bible" line so quickly that it sometimes doesn't even register to the listener - in actual fact, it deserves a lot more thought than that.

Do Christians really expect to have us believe that if it wasn't for the Bible and the example of Jesus, we would all be running around raping, murdering and stealing? All human societies develop laws and 'morals' which have clear mutual advantages. Were the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians totally anarchic, inhuman sinners? Of course not, they had complicated laws and ran highly complex societies. Now it could be said to that that they got their morals from their religions too, but I simply don't think so, I think there must be a much deeper sociological root.

The main link between morality and religion, to my eyes, is the fear factor - the common sense rules of living with other humans would exist without religion, but religion does have the useful side-effect of scaring people into obedience.

By definition you are the furthest possible as an agnostic atheist.

Why don't you embrace this? Why not oppose this terrible phenomenon? The word atheist should never have to be used, but since we are living in a world with most people are theists, the world is necessary.

James wrote:I think one of the most interesting debates is where we get our morality from. Christians often fire the old "we get our morals from the Bible" line so quickly that it sometimes doesn't even register to the listener - in actual fact, it deserves a lot more thought than that.

Do Christians really expect to have us believe that if it wasn't for the Bible and the example of Jesus, we would all be running around raping, murdering and stealing? All human societies develop laws and 'morals' which have clear mutual advantages. Were the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians totally anarchic, inhuman sinners? Of course not, they had complicated laws and ran highly complex societies. Now it could be said to that that they got their morals from their religions too, but I simply don't think so.

The main link between morality and religion, to my eyes, is the fear factor - the common sense rules of living with other humans would exist without religion, but religion does have the useful side-effect of scaring people into obedience.

Well put! Thank God for evolution!

swizzlenuts wrote:

James wrote:I think one of the most interesting debates is where we get our morality from. Christians often fire the old "we get our morals from the Bible" line so quickly that it sometimes doesn't even register to the listener - in actual fact, it deserves a lot more thought than that.

Do Christians really expect to have us believe that if it wasn't for the Bible and the example of Jesus, we would all be running around raping, murdering and stealing? All human societies develop laws and 'morals' which have clear mutual advantages. Were the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians totally anarchic, inhuman sinners? Of course not, they had complicated laws and ran highly complex societies. Now it could be said to that that they got their morals from their religions too, but I simply don't think so.

The main link between morality and religion, to my eyes, is the fear factor - the common sense rules of living with other humans would exist without religion, but religion does have the useful side-effect of scaring people into obedience.

Well put! Thank God for evolution!

Indeed, a very good point which I agree with. I'd like to think that a man would refrain from killing another man because he has compassion and respect for life, not because he's scared of going to hell. Obviously that's not true of the entire human race, for one example Hitler was very naughty and obviously not very bothered about the possibility of going to hell. But, for another example, I am a lovely boy.

swizzlenuts wrote:By definition you are the furthest possible as an agnostic atheist.

Why don't you embrace this? Why not oppose this terrible phenomenon? The word atheist should never have to be used, but since we are living in a world with most people are theists, the world is necessary.

Agnostic Athiest? Yeh that'll do.

*continues to sit on fence, proudly*

I couldn't be arsed to read past the first page but I'll just say I'm agnostic.

thrashduck wrote:As long as you don't act as cuntish as Richard Dawkins.

Agreed, I've always said I hope someone proves there is a God just to shut that tosser up.

TORSO wrote:Religion has some nice ideas like me kind to people, but the whole be kind to people or your going to hell or be good and you go to heaven, just imagine if suicide wasn't against the "rules" in the bible then people would just top themself just to get to god instead of moping about here waiting.

I actually have a friend who, when he was 8, tried to top himself because he went to Sunday school and had learned about heaven, but obviously not about suicide being the unforgivable sin, and didn't see the point living here when he could go to heaven

Destruction wrote:I couldn't be arsed to read past the first page but I'll just say I'm agnostic.

thrashduck wrote:As long as you don't act as cuntish as Richard Dawkins.

Agreed, I've always said I hope someone proves there is a God just to shut that tosser up.

Seriously, what's the big deal with Dawkins?!

I describe myself as effectively athiest. I do not believe in any God and I totally reject the God's of all organised religion. The concept of a being that requires worship on NO EVIDENCE is either stupid or a lie.

I have nothing against faith or individuals that follow organised religions. I did but since I have met some truly decent religious people I have re-assessed my bigotry. It makes me a bad as any other fundamentalist.

The reason I am not a complete athiest is because I think it is as arrogant to reject any concept of a higher being as it is to declare you have the correct knowledge that there is one. If that makes sense. My question is 'does it matter' rather than 'does it exist'. As it doesn't seem to effect me, this 'God' figure does not matter.

With regards to morality, ethics and law, that is a far deeper subject than I can truly understand. However, Bookchin (Green Anarchist, died a few years back) spouts some fairly elaborate, mostly unreadable but sometimes interesting stuff on the matter. Check some of the stuff in 'The Ecology of Freedom' if you are an intellectual unlike myself. However, I believe the moral code from the bible is either bizarre or oppressive. In the old testament their are 613 laws - ones that orthodox jews are meant to follow to the letter. These include thins like no homosexuality, no eatin of shellfish and not mixing certain fabrics. The more common source in Christianity - the 10 commandments (MK II) - are far more in a style of elitism. Not stealing - essentially protect the rich (who have the most to steal). Do not murder - again preventing you from attacking those who are likely to be your target, your oppessors. Respect your elders - respect authority, to hell with earning it, accept it. As for rape, incest, and slavery these things are not included in the 10 commandments (MK II).

The truth is (despite my blatantly distorted reading of them) the 10 commandments (MK II) are a reasonable ethical code. However, they are not cast iron truths. I believe religion, on the whole, in its organised form is a way of guaranteeing acquiescence. That's why individual faith is worthwhile, it effects the individual and demands no imposition.

Then there's the fact that religious people pick and choose their interpretation of their faith. While it is easy to pull out unpleasant quotes by the dozen from the bible, it is easier to find peace offering quotes. Religion does not determine evil. We can debate what does forever. Personally, I believe it is the concentration of power - hence why religion, like government or any other prominent institution, is, in my eyes, a destructive force. But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

Also I'll leave this link. Its the third article in an ongoing series (Does God Have a Future?) of 10 but it's the first I read. I enjoyed it too. Have a look if you can be arsed...

http://www.shadowdemocracy.org/2007/12/ ... ad-really/