In the midst of the arguing about 'what do we do with Metal Iain', talking about shitting and puking and quoting Star Wars/Peep Show/The Office ad nauseum, it is nice to have some sensible discussion. SO, I am currently completing an essay for my course discussing Britishness. Issues to do with identity, culture and diversity are significant to my subject and it raises many interesting questions. Discuss at you leisure:

What is Britishness? Is it definable? Can it be concentrated into a sentence or two? Is it many things or if it includes 'everything in Britain' does that make it meaningless? Do the BNP misunderstand Britishness, do they highlight a certain type of Britishness or do they merely show how dangerous Britishness as an idea (assuming you don't like the BNP)? Alternatively, is Britishness really, really dumb?

Who here considers themselves British? Are you proud of that identity and why/why not?

I'll throw my views in later...

Trying to cut down on people getting pissed off with Metal Iain by starting a thread on Britishness?

Nice.

I don't think there's any short answer to what is Britishness. The sort of questions you usually find that are asked about nationality are as follows:

'X-ness - more than a polemic?'

I think you have to consider what being a Briton means to the constituent parts of Great Britain, especially England. For example, it's often said that Unionist Scots have a hierarchical identity - Scottish, then British - whereas English people often consider themselves as simply British. The only strong feelings I really have towards Britishness are that, firstly, it is definitively not a nationality in the way that being English, Scottish or Welsh is [issues of being English as opposed to British arise here most often in my experience] and, secondly, that I don't really buy into Britishness any more than I do 'Scottishness'. Whereas I may have an accent that differentiates me from someone from Hull, I also have an accent that differentiates me from someone from Glasgow.

I tend to throw my lot in with the hierarchical identity: I'm a Fifer in Scotland; a Scot in Britain; a Briton in Europe; and a European elsewhere. I wouldn't say I pride myself on being British because I don't really consider national, for want of a better word, identity to be particularly important. The only thing I flat-out hate about it is having to hear God Save the Queen. It's shit.

I'll post something later once I'm not so tired, but good topic.

I think I would usually tell a foreign person I was 'English', not 'British', although the phrases do overlap in a lot of people's day to day usage. As for what it means, I think it's quite hard to pin down - I think all the stuff about British people being naturally inclined to form queues and other bollocks like that is quite silly... but then again I think you would feel out of place in a foreign country for more reasons than language. It's just the cultural atmosphere that you become acustomed to I suppose, almost impossible to pin down.

I think like any extremists, parties like the BNP will exploit the worst aspects of what their party is based on and exploit them - an old view of superiority, racism, gawd save our queen, using the flag as a some kind of sacred white banner... but I don't feel bad about being British.

I just think about a lot of Americans and am glad I'm not them. We've got stuff to be proud of , things like our sense of humour and the general public's generally quite sensible nature in times of adversity. I'd probably associate being British with old stereotypes yes, but I think the new mixture of cultures definetly plays a part. I just don't like people like the BNP, football hooligans and other dicks who tarnish our name with small minded wankery.

James wrote:I think all the stuff about British people being naturally inclined to form queues and other bollocks like that is quite silly...

Certainly not at the bus stops I have been waiting at in Edinburgh for the last 20 years It seems the European, ignorant/self centred approach is becoming more and more of a British trait. Not many people have good manners anymore.

Britishness is England going "Ahh shit, we're going down the swanny, if we team up with these nice countries we won't look so bad."

Lev - Pulverizer wrote:Britishness is England going "Ahh shit, we're going down the swanny, if we team up with these nice countries we won't look so bad."

Elaborate on how that is Britishness, please.

Anyway, I really don't know what can come under the bracket of 'Britishness'. Looking at things politicians have said has been interesting considering they go on about it so much.
Robin Cook said that 'Britishness' was represented by Chicken Tikka Masala being the nation's favourite dish (this is not precise, but close enough for what we're talking about). This is interesting because the dish was actually made in Britain - Chicken Tikka and Chicken Masala are two Indian dishes and 'we Brits' combined the two. A bastardisation of another's culture is British? Arguably. But Cook's point was that we are now a mish-mash of cultures - 'multi-cultural', so to speak.
David Blunkett said that Britishness could be defined by what it is not - specifically referring to genital mutilation and forced marriages. This is not a good way of defining something though, there are loads of things that are also 'not British'. Cannibalism, for example and (now) rape inside marriage.

I don't think there is a Britishness as such. There are certain things in our history we can be proud of (Habeas Corpus and the NHS, for example) and things that we can be less proud of (Imperialism, 42 days and Football Hooliganism come immediately to mind). I wouldn't call myself proud to be 'British' or 'English' or anything else, though when asked I say I come from England (although, 'Where in England' can get confusing). However, I know what I like about our country and what I want to change. That's not really Britishness, that's just good sense.

STD_Caps wrote:I don't think there is a Britishness as such. There are certain things in our history we can be proud of (Habeas Corpus and the NHS, for example) and things that we can be less proud of (Imperialism, 42 days and Football Hooliganism come immediately to mind). I wouldn't call myself proud to be 'British' or 'English' or anything else, though when asked I say I come from England (although, 'Where in England' can get confusing). However, I know what I like about our country and what I want to change. That's not really Britishness, that's just good sense.

I differ quite a bit here because I think the British Empire was brilliant. Maybe that's just because I don't give a flying fuck about the exploitation that went on in it but it made the UK the most powerful country in the world for about 150 years which I think is something to be proud of. Well, I'm more proud of the British Empire than I am that joke of a list of the 100 Greatest Britons compiled a few years back. Winston Churchill can suck my arse, he's not the Greatest Briton ever to have lived by a long shot and Princess Diana shouldn't have been in the top three either.

Yeah, that list includes an awful lot of cunts and I'm pretty sure I didn't see Mary Wollstonecraft, William Godwin, Keats or either Bentham in there. Although, good work on Paine and More getting a place.

Wollstonecraft?!

Bah!

I hated studying her. I had to write an essay on Feminism in first year which I flunked spectacularly. Mind you, we did have a fat dyke lecturing us on her so that sort of put me off. Do you watch Lost? Jeremy Bentham is the latest philosopher whose name has been used for a character. They shouldn't have done that. Now we have Bakunin, Bentham, Burke, Hume, Locke, Rousseau. Maybe more, I can't remember.

Really? Lost characters all have philosopher names? Is there a relevance? (And the derailment begins...)

Besides speaking english with an regional english accent i feel no sense of national identity outside of the cliché that is tea.


I honestly think the only things that differ us from say america is minute social graces and a better idea of what a health care system should be (that was idea, not actual health care system).

STD_Caps wrote:Really? Lost characters all have philosopher names? Is there a relevance? (And the derailment begins...)

Yes, there is relevance. Some Britons - even ones that the vast majority of the British public will not have heard of - are great enough to have had characters named after them long after they have died. If I were dead, I'd rather have that than be top of a silly list.

Besides, this is General Chat. I've been told I can talk bollocks here if I want; seemingly it's threads about music that people get upset about.

Sorry, my derailment point has left things a bit confusing. I meant is there a reason the people in Lost are named after philosophers? Do they discuss philosophical issues in the programme (even metaphorically)?

As for tea, that's not grown here is it? Strange how we identify ourselves by an enjoyment of an imported good. Kentish Ales, there's something nice and British/English/Kentish.